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Carl V Phillips, PhD's avatar

I really have to wonder who this is directed at. Because I don't think it is net productive. I walked away from engaging with people who talked vegan stuff decades ago because I hated the obsession with identity, purity, and edge cases. Thanks to the much-maligned but actually quite remarkable Substack algorithm, I found myself happily engaging again with people who shared my values and didn't do offputting stuff like that. But this really triggered me again.

Ok, sure, there is value in explaining some inconvenient facts to someone who thinks "there is nothing harmful to animals about me buying my neighbor's backyard eggs even though I would never buy mass-produced eggs". However, I would start with a point that you seem to have missed: If you consume those eggs then someone else who might have chosen them instead of the grocery store can't get them, so they go the the grocery store. The backyard eggs are a finite resource that is not really affected by demand. So the net effect of you buying those eggs is the same as the effect of you buying grocery store eggs.

What you did say was a collection of things that seem almost designed to turn most readers off about veganism. Half of the points you made could be followed by "and that is why you should not have children". Many of them could be followed by "and that is why you should not have a dog". Several of them could be followed by "and that is why farm animal rescue operations are not actually good". Some of it pretty much says that therefore you should not engage in 99% of the commerce you participate in. Whether you really fully believe those points as you stated them or not (and I am not sure very many vegans would stick with such positions in the face of careful friendly-but-critical interlocution), saying something that flows naturally into conclusions that most people would balk at is not a wise tactic.

I expect that your reply to these observations would be "no, that is not it, it is only when ...something...something...exploitation...something...something., so it does not apply to children or pet dogs or whatever". I believe that you really see those lines in your mind. But most of us do not share your mind or your exact lines. If you deliberately restricted your message to being "this is why I don't..." or "before you think there are no arguments against backyard egg consumption..." (though, again, you left out the main clear argument against it), and included elements "not everyone who is motivated by vegan ethics will feel this way" and "that is not to say there are no upsides for the animals" and "this is certainly better than....", then this message could land with most people. As presented, though, it landed with me (and I expect would land with many other readers, though they may not be here) as "yep, vegans are still bright-line-ist, edge case obsessed, and uninterested in thinking through the full implications of their "rules" (in terms of what they demand that no one -- including themselves usually -- actually does, and in terms of whether they are likely to alienate potential fellow-travelers)".

It is not like I am going to be influenced negatively by this one encounter (though I am certainly not persuaded by the intended message either). But you only get so much of that with anyone before you do indeed cause them to walk away.

Tamra Turpin's avatar

Thank you for your thoughtful, well-articulated posts. I have learned a lot from Herbivore Substack. I would like to make contributions to Herbivore but only preselected amounts are available and that doesn’t work for me.

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